Allright so I've been tossing around some ideas in my head for quite a while and had a few questions for those more chemistry minded folks out there involved in mixing e-liquid.
After vaping for quite a while I notice that there is no real "nicotine" buzz like there was from cigarettes. There's a variety of reasons for this but I think I've nailed it down to one major one in particular. The PH level of our vapor. Our vapor generally sits around a 6 - 7 in it's PH level which is every so slightly on the acidic side of the scale. Where as cigarettes sit on the more basic side of the PH scale.
When doing some research into cigarettes and why they're so gosh darn effective at delivering Nicotine into the blood stream I found some old research done by a few competing tobacco brands that had been leaked to the public. That sometime in the 70's/80's Cigarettes had started being treated with ammonia to increase the level of nicotine absorption in the Mucous membrane of the lungs. This allowed manufacturers to use lower amounts of nicotine to achieve their same goals. It appeared at that time that as little as a .8 increase in the PH level of the tobacco smoke increased it's effectiveness by up to 60% this is a pretty dramatic increase and in vaporland could be why some liquids appear to give you more of a nicotine buzz than others at the same level of nicotine (quality control of the liquids notwithstanding).
My question to the community is, is there something out there that is relatively safe to vape that could achieve the same results of raising the PH of our liquid to provide a satisfying vape to new smokers without increasing health risks substantially. I've noted that Passion Flower (Harmine Alkoloid) is a possibility, Ammonia is another, as well as Baking Soda. However none of these seem particularly safe outside of the Harmine Alkoloid, all though even that appears to be a minor MAOI inhibitor which is fairly unsafe.
Just for reference,
>PH Levels of Ingredients used in E-Cigarettes
>>VG - ~7 PH
>>PG - ~7 PH
>>Distilled Water - ~7 PH
I'm unsure of all the different PH levels of flavors I haven't done litmus tests on enough of them yet to come to a good conclusion on that front.
This seems like a rather odd place to post this, but I think it's rather fitting for this subreddit as most of the most advanced DIY'ers hang out here :).
EDIT - Also by allowing us to potentially mix lower levels of nicotine into our e-liquid while achieving the effectiveness of higher blend e-juices we could create a liquid that has better flavor/less throat hit but is just as effective.
I'm a bit conflicted with this whole line of reasoning. Perhaps it's because I see vaping as a means to end nicotine addiction, rather than a lifetime replacement to smoking. Myself, I'm taking my time, my plan is to get off it very gradually over the course of a year or two, probably more like two.
There are substantial differences I've found in how I react to nicotine from vaping compared to how I reacted to cigarettes. For one, I don't constantly crave it the same way. If I'm busy with something, it can be hours before I even think about it, and a bit longer before it nags at me at all. Secondly, the instant "hit" of a cigarette is gone. Instead, the "relief" is much less dramatic, but has become just as effective for me. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I've discovered that I can freely change my dosage by making juice at various strengths, without any additional craving. I use a mech and RDA exclusively these days, and can comfortably mix anywhere from 4mg/ml to 12mg/ml. The high end of that spectrum gives me a bit more of a stimulant effect sometimes (which can be nice), but the low end doesn't make me crave anything more. I can go back and forth on a whim, without any additional effects.
These differences make me wonder why anyone would want to make nicotine delivery or absorption more effective. It strikes me as potentially undermining the positive differences inherent in vaping, and trying to make it more like smoking, more addictive, and harder to break. That sounds like a perilous path, unless you've already decided that you want to be vaping the rest of your life (and we really don't know what 20 or 30 years of it could do to us).
Hey!
Thanks for your contribution to the discussion. I spent a few days delving really deeply into the topic and came to a similar conclusion as yours at first. Thinking man I really love the positives of not feeling like a junkie, not having to worry about those cravings coming on quite as strong, and dropping my nicotine intake down to next to nothing. These things are all positive and right now vaping is a smoking cessation tool you are correct. But then I started thinking a bit deeper on the topic, I know quite a few people that will never quite smoking because they crave that feeling of relief that they get from a cigarette and love it and hold onto it dearly. If we can engineer a product to help those people too it might not be such a bad thing. I'm not trying to sell this liquid to anyone or even promoting that being done by any vendor period. Because right now especially because we just don't know what this kind of thing could do to someone. The health benefits that vaping has right now are fanfreakingtastic and I would never want to compromise those. This is mostly just an experiment in chemistry for me, I'm interested in reverse engineering cigarettes to understand the process that is getting people hooked on them and how to break that for the largest number of people out there one step at a time. However I do think as I stated in my edit that there can be a use for this even in vaping not necessarily for increased nicotine absorption. Lowering nicotine levels in liquid can allow for greater flavor expression and the chefs to be able to tweak their blend to what they believe is the correct flavor then dial in the nicotine level using PH without messing with the flavor too much. There are also few other benefits of raising alkalinity of vapor beyond just nicotine absorption it reduces mucous production in the throat and lungs which when using a heavy VG blend is one of the potential health risks that we don't fully understand yet. VG draws liquid into itself and can coat your lungs with it consistently doing this could lead to bronchial disturbances in long term or heavy uses. I'm looking to explore every option to get the safest and most well engineered e-liquids created. I believe that there is still room for advancement in our industry and ways to create safer products and more efficient products even if this isn't one of those methods.
> I know quite a few people that will never quite smoking because they crave that feeling of relief that they get from a cigarette and love it and hold onto it dearly.
I know all about this, and I agree, a lot of people are like this (I was, too, for a bit). I've come to two realizations. First, people aren't ever going to quit until they truly want to, and don't mind putting up with some changes to get it done. Second, the best way to make the switch is abruptly, and brute forcing it with 24mg juice for the first week or two. When I did this, I lost a LOT of sleep due to the insomnia, and was buzzing the whole time (had some cool memory enhancement too, but sadly it went away when I lowered my dosage). Still, I didn't crave a cigarette, because I had so much nic coursing through me there wasn't a chance for withdrawal. The beauty part is, once you're used to the e-cig, you can easily lower that 24 to 18, 12, 9 even, without any misery. The trick is getting your brain to accept that fact, and it is a fact. The brain might whisper "I need more than that to get the effect I want" for a bit, but it's purely psychological, because you're aware of lowering your dose. Get through that and you find you have control, and the issue goes away. You're then free to modulate your dose however you like. I'm rambling here, sorry.
I can say that I never would have believed I'd be able to quit smoking. I smoked 1-2 packs a day for 26 years, and turned into a bear if I couldn't have one on schedule. I had extreme anxiety if I had to go longer than a couple of hours. So, e-cigs have been something of a miracle for me.
I do find your line of thinking on this to be interesting, which is why I first said I'm a bit conflicted. I'd just be so much happier if more people could make as clean a break as I did, without it being harder to modulate or quit later. Maybe there's something in your ideas that could help some do this. I'm just a bit hesitant about it.
Btw, what are your thoughts on menthol in juice? Tobacco companies started adding it to cigarettes because it greatly increases the time it takes for us to metabolize nicotine. Unfortunately, this doesn't mean people smoke less, it just means they build a higher tolerance and smoke more...
Menthol in cigarettes was added for a couple of reasons the first like you mention it's it's change in metabolization of nicotine the second is the smoothing in your throat to allow for people to increase their draw by reducing the irritation that nicotine has on your lungs. What is a little harder to find is the evidence that menthol when metabolized by your liver causes receptor sites in CNS to become more susceptible to activation. I.E. toss some menthol in and nicotine effectiveness goes up slightly. Who knows how much many of those studies are not for public consumption and I couldn't find anything after a bit of searching so I let it die. I would imagine it serves a similar purpose in vaping, sensory activation plays a key role in addiction and pleasure received. Hence why us vapors love our nice flavors so dearly. I would be interested to find just how sensitized these receptors are by menthol though, the study I found pointed to long term receptor down-regulation through menthol administration too which could be good for the tobacco industry if the receptors in question were the same ones that nicotine was effecting.
As far as tossing it in e-liquid I say have at it, I personally don't enjoy menthol vapes that much which is odd considering I was a menthol smoker but if people like them I can't imagine the amounts in e-liquid would hurt to much if you want to follow big tobacco's formula for menthol addition anywhere from .35 to 1.35% menthol added should be the "key" amount for whatever that's worth might help us in reverse engineering more true to life tobacco/menthol flavors :).
I guess it might be possible to use a water ionizer to increase the alkalinity of water and add a small amount of it to your juice. Some of the ionizers can take water up to a ph of around 12.5, though you really don't want to drink something that strong.
Fantastic, I hadn't even seen one of these on the market only chemical solutions that seemed pretty dangerous for people to vape on. That being said I wonder how these go about raising the PH level of the water? The increase in PH needed seems very slight anyway so I don't imagine too much of the water would need to be added to the mix maybe 10% or less. Once I get around to purchasing one and doing some testing at home I'll report back on it.
I think they work on electrolysis, so they push a current through the water to ionize the hydrogen and oxygen atoms. The higher the ionization, the higher the pH level.
I find it strange that saline is actually acidic, whereas I wouldn't have thought it would be had I not looked it up a while back.
I think a bigger factor rather than the nicotine absorption is likely the quantity of nicotine in the liquid. Reference the study that flavour art helped with that I can't seem to find the damn link to right now.
Basically it was a study of the second hand left overs comparing traditional cigarettes to e-cigs.
Standard cigarettes have 11mg of nicotine per cigarette. To achieve the same amount of nicotine delivery to the body, a vapor would have to vape 1ml of 11mg juice in the same amount of time it takes to smoke a cigarette.
I don't know many folks capable of that if they want to.
Alternatively, 24mg juice vaped over a period of 5 minutes, if you could get through half a ml in that time would be the rough equivalent.
If you could simulate a comparative analysis of nicotine delivery via this method, I would undoubtedly expect that you would receive the same 'nicotine buzz' from either source.
I should also note that during this study, there was no nicotine residue left in the room from ecigs, but there was from the analogs. This would indicate a higher absorption rate in ecigs based on my limited knowledge.
Botboy,
The quantity of the nicotine present is also an incredibly important factor. I've done a little bit of anecdotal research as I don't have the lab equipment at my disposal to do anything more then that and noted that 1ml of 24mg didn't provide the same calming/stimulating effects as a tobacco based cigarette smoked in a comparable amount of time. It seems like Nicotine suspended in PG/VG solution takes a longer period of time to break down in the blood and achieves a lower amount of nicotine in your blood over a period of time but also a more sustained amount. Whereas the nicotine delivered by cigarettes causes a sharper peak blood concentration quicker causing the "rush" enjoyed by so many cigarette smokers.
Another thing to keep in mind is throat hit when vaping 24mg on a relatively simple 15watt device on a 1.2-1.4 ohm coil I find it unbearable, I don't know about yourself or others but it seems incredibly potent and hurts my lungs almost as much as a cigarette if not more. I know this is due to chemical treatment of the tobacco allowing for better airflow and numbing of the throat etc however it's not the best alternative.
If you can hunt down the Flavor Art study I would love to see it. I can reference the study that I've gotten the majority of my information from as well. If I had the equipment necessary to determine blood levels of nicotine from vaping/smoking I would love to do that but alas I do not so I'm relying on studies of comparable nicotine vaporization techniques that emulate modern ecigarettes.
Currently e-cigarettes will take away withdrawal symptoms present from smoking cessation but it doesn't appear to emulate smoking entirely.
EDIT - Was just reading your post on Vaping Underground, eerie lol.
Searching around for the study now, glad to see you at least attempted the comparative analysis. I can't even vape 6mg nowadays without it feeling like someone punched in me throat.
Which thread?
In case you were interested both of the studies I was referring to and made note of are below,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1759570/pdf/v006p00219.pdf
http://tobaccodocuments.org/product_design/2056128349-8356.html
The thread in question was about TFA Jackfruit and some other random threads. The name just looked really familiar and I checked back and it was your thread haha.
EDIT- I know the feeling nowadays I vape on 6mg consistently and 24mg now feels like I'm getting throat punched. At the time that I attempted the comparison I was still vaping the odd 24mg.
I read somewhere recently that mentioned PG vapour having higher particle size than cigarette smoke (the PG droplets are almost an order of magnitude bigger than tobacco particles). This leads to the droplets from vapour not reaching the smallest bubbles in your lung, and since surface area plays a big role in adsorption, this has an effect on nicotine uptake.
And that PV/VG binds to nicotine in some way, slowing its release.
I think I read it here, though the claim is not sourced there as far as I can tell.
Have you seen this wikipedia entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Pharmacodynamics?
>Tobacco smoke contains anabasine, anatabine, and nornicotine. It also contains the monoamine oxidase inhibitors harman and norharman.[33] These beta-carboline compounds significantly decrease MAO activity in smokers.[33][34] MAO enzymes break down monoaminergic neurotransmitters such as dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin. It is thought that the powerful interaction between the MAOIs and the nicotine is responsible for most of the addictive properties of tobacco smoking.[35] The addition of five minor tobacco alkaloids increases nicotine-induced hyperactivity, sensitization and intravenous self-administration in rats.[36]
While they're talking mainly addiction I wonder if these extra compounds add to the 'buzz'.
Those extra compounds are fairly weak MAOI's. I have thought about experimenting with alkaloids but I don't feel comfortable working with them outside of a sterile lab environment and using them on myself makes me weary. MAOI's aren't anything to mess with and can very easily cause all sorts of health problems, they're only prescribed in the most intense cases of depression etc that are unable to be treated with common anti depressant strategies.
However all that being said after looking deeply into the amount of those alkaloids present in tobacco smoke I've been able to deem them largely inactive in the 'buzz' of the nicotine produced. If the potentiation was mainly from MAO you would see smokers have all sorts of problems when combining other drugs with cigarettes as well as certain foods. But good find :).
While true that MAO-I's aren't anything to mess with, there are major differences in long acting vs short acting, and reversible vs irreversible MAO-I's. The harmala alkaloids are extremely short acting and reversible compared to the older pharmaceutical MAO-I's prescribed for things like treatment resistant depression, which are long acting and irreversible; it's recommended not to ingest anything that would cause an interaction for 2 weeks or more upon cessation of many prescription MAO-I's and it's said that even eating certain types of cheese can cause a hypertensive crisis. Irreversible in this context means a drug that binds to the MAO (monoamine oxidase) enzyme covalently and doesn't let go until your cells create new enzymes (every couple of weeks) Contrary to what you said that smokers would be having all sorts of interactions if it were true that MAO-I's were the potentiation factor of ciggs, these types of interaction are not known to occur with the harmala alkaloids at all. Selectivity for MAO-A and MAO-B inhibition is also an important factor in determining side effects. It's also really important to note that modern MAO-Is like selegiline have much fewer side effects as the older ones and are reversbile. They are actually really effective, have much fewer side effects and aren't always just used as last line therapy anymore.
MAO-I's are traditionally used to enhance and increase the duration of effects of certain drugs like DMT, and the MAO-I effect of the harmala alkaloids is speculated to be what makes cigarettes so reinforcing in combination with other drugs. Smokers will often chain smoke when they drink. Many people start smoking only while they are drinking and gradually start smoking all the time. This is also common with many other drugs, from pot to heroin, where people who normally don't smoke will have a cigarette after they use to increase the high. So to sum it up, I wouldn't be so quick to discount the effects of the short term MAO-I's in tobacco.
Don't discount the strength of their effects in a traditional cigarette, especially MAO-A selective ones like harmine. By reducing the rate at which nicotine and dopamine are rendered inactive, they allow for a much higher effect to be garnered from the same amount of material.
Inhibiting MAO is also part of the pharmacokinetics of many psychostimulants such as amphetamine.
pH isn't the correct metric as it only applies to aqueous solutions. Neither e liquid or cigarettes qualify. You may discuss acidity or alkalinity of substances but gases don't have either quality unless interacting with some substrate. You ll need to look up the pKa of nicotine and figure out what form the nicotine takes at both slightly acidic and alkaline environments. More likely, I would venture is that delivery has more to do with coupling complexes of nicotine in the smoke or with any other outsized compounds that survive combustion. You have a lot of work ahead of you if you want to figure out how to increase the adsorption rate of nicotine in the lungs and you'll want access to some scientific databases to for the better journals or there.
when I first switched to vaping, I noticed it would get me very overly stimulated.. the nicotine was working.. but not so much relaxed as I wasn't poisoning my blood supply with dirty air.
I always assumed that I don't get the "buzz" from vaping simply from the lack of CO2, and CO that comes with the smoke. the nicotine dilates your blood vessels and then you have a ton of CO and CO2 pumping thru your blood instead of oxygen, and you get light headed from the double whammy of less blood flow (smaller tubes to pump thru) and less oxygen (more co2 and co saturation).
Hey,
Yeah this is a partial ingredient in the "buzz" that you acquire from cigarettes but honestly it seems like the rush across your receptors and the rapid spike in blood nicotine concentrations has more to do with the relaxation/stimulation feeling derived from cigarette smoking. While the headrush feeling may be partially from the CO2 and lack of oxygen to the brain in particular that's not the attribute that I'm looking to replicate. That actually does far more harm then good and is one of the parts of smoking that's detrimental to human health. Thanks for the reply :).
A couple of things here. You have to take into account that nicotine is most likely going to be acidic. Also, most of your concentrates are going to acidic as well. You should be able to taste this in them. For example, most coconut, citrus, and chocolates are acidic in their state as well. If you want to raise the level of pH in your distilled water, you can use pH drops. I'm not sure if this is safe. pH drops typically have potassium/sodium/magnesium/calcium, or a mix of those. Once again, I'm not sure how safe this is to vape, or what happens to the chemicals when they are heated. You also have to remember something about "smoking" vs "vaping". You will always absorb more chemicals and more of a percentage of the chemicals when smoking because you are burning them. When you "smoke" something by burning(obviously), the chemicals are somewhat increased because of burning and absorbed more than vaping. This is why you absorb less nicotine when vaping vs smoking(If you were vaping the same nicotine mg amount in a cig vs an ecig). Here's a bit about acidity and alkalinity concerning your body. While it might state that smoke is a base on the pH scale, it is however acid forming. There are foods and drinks that are alkaline/alkaline forming, and acidic/acid forming. There is a difference here. Here is an example: Fresh squeezed lemon has a pH of around 2-3(acidic). When you drink fresh lemon that has been squeezed into water, it turns to a pH of about 9 (alkaline) in your body. This is an example of alkaline forming. Here is a different example the other way around: Red meat typically has a neutral base. When ingested, red meat is acid forming in your body. Same thing with milk. I know your main question is with nic absorption, but I figured I would throw this in. If you want more nic, just get 1-2mg more nic in your juice. Fun Fact: Alkaline water is more hydrating than acidic/basic water.
The issue still stands that a simple ph adjustment of smoke effects uptake of nicotine by 60% that's quite a bit more then a simple 1-2mg adjustment and doubling your nicotine content or even increasing it by 60% detracts an incredible amount from the experience of vaping. Tobacco companies knew they couldn't just keep jacking up the nicotine for the same reason, it ruins the flavor of the smoke/vapor.
Could you expand upon your statement about smoke being an acid forming base, I understand lemon juice as well as steak and other foods in the stomach but the stomach seems like a far different beast then the lungs. As long as the smoke is basic it allows for better absorption into the mucous membranes in the lungs. Also as another user pointed out it has a lot to do with the size of the smoke particles vs PG/VG particles. I'm not sure really how to address this, maybe adding distilled water would effect the particle size as the VG/PG binds to the water? I'm really not sure on that one just a shot in the dark. Or maybe using another glycerin base I've seen a few other ones that e-liquid companies have jumped onto not sure about their particle size though. Thanks for the awesome reply, learned something from it :).
Smoking puts massive amounts of acid forming toxins into your body through the lungs. The lungs are a different beast, but whatever goes in there ends up being absorbed pretty quick and direct to the blood stream. So if you have something that is acid forming going into your blood stream, your body will correct this as to keep your blood pH in the 7.3-7.45 range. Your body does this by using something in your bones that has a pH of around 9/10.....calcium. You always have to keep a balanced blood pH and your body will do that for you. The problem is that it takes calcium away from your bones to do it. As for particle size and a better absorption rate, that's more of a question for a chemist/biologist who does actual research and lab tests.