The active mods (really only three of us, including our newest addition BotBoy141) have had some ongoing discussions in the past few weeks about what we want this subreddit to look like. Rather than make an executive decision, we'd prefer to get input from all members of the community before we put sub-wide guidelines in place.
We have complaints from both ends of the spectrum: experienced DIYers frustrated at the same questions over and over from new mixers, and new mixers frustrated that their simple questions aren't being addressed. To the first group - we feel your pain. It's evident from a lot of new posts that the OP hasn't used the sidebar and search. We've added reminders to the post new content box and had a stickied post at the top of the sub for the past few weeks. Neither has seemed to have a significant impact.
To the new mixer: we were all there once. My first DIY kit had 8 flavors; three I chose were Absinthe, Honey (TFA), and peppermint - not one of these has ever made it into regular usage. We are here to help - BUT: this is a DIY thread, and we are not going to do your work for you. If you are asking a question that has already been answered a dozen times before, and it's obvious you haven't used the sidebar and search, don't expect a lot of help. For the new mixer, use the sidebar; then search; then search again; then rephrase the question and search a third time, and if it's still not there, then go ahead with your post.
Our new mod BotBoy has put a LOT of effort into the beginner's guide; please check it out and comment. If you really want to help we can make you a Wiki editor.
We have the following recurring threads:
My Creations (Recipe Thread) (Monthly)
Clone Request Thread (Monthly)
New Mixers Question Thread (Weekly)
Help me make something with what I've bought (Weekly)
Clone Thread (Every 6 months)
FWIW, I'd like to sticky each of these , but Reddit only allows one stickied post. We can link them in the sidebar, but with the weekly ones this is kind of a chore for the mods, and TBH it's not going to happen.
So here's what we are asking, essentially. Should this be a highly regulated sub, where repeat questions are pulled, recipes that are outside the designated threads deleted, repeat new mixer questions deleted, etc? Or is it "OK as is" with upvotes and downvotes deciding what hits your page?
I've got some questions below. Please vote up or down as described in the question. It's in contest mode so only top level posts are shown by default, but if you have a comment to make on the question please do so. If you'd like to add another top-level question, please message the mods rather than adding it yourself. After a few weeks we will decide what direction this sub is heading and proceed accordingly. Thanks for you help in making this the BEST community for DIYers of all experience levels.
I think that posts should be confined to the appropriate recurring thread and mods should delete posts that don't follow this rule (Upvote = I agree, Downvote = I disagree).
I agree except for the recipes. Good recipes are great content for the sub and should not be limited to just the recipe thread. I've always viewed the monthly recipe threads as a type of archive of recipes.
Posts that ask recurring questions, where the OP obviously has not used the search, should be removed by mods (Upvote = I agree, Downvote = I disagree).
Nah, because these will also answer questions people did not even know they have had. Plus the reddit search is total garbage.
Alright so here's the deal. Someone posts: "where can i find a scale to mix by weight?" I've seen this one about 5x in the last two weeks. A new thread started every time.
How many times is the question answered there? I'm sick of doing the search for others and linking them back to this stuff. There's 0 reason to be creating these threads.
Posts that could have been answered by resources found in the sidebar should be removed by mods (Upvote = I agree, Downvote = I disagree).
I'm not sure removed is the best option. If someone asks a common question, isn't it better to link them to the info, then downvote to oblivion with a "plz search first" reminder? Seeing this happen also shows all users that it is, indeed, the way we do business here, and sort of makes an example of the OP in a not-too-mean way.
This way the newbie gets an answer, and knows they should have searched, and another post with another phrasing of the question can show up in search results.
Good idea, and exactly the type of feedback I'm hoping for in this thread.
Heh, I've thought about this over on r/electronic_cigarette a bunch, they're dealing with the same thing. The wiki should get used more, but its tough to make that happen. Since searching the sub is (or should be) what users do first, I think the wiki should be built on that, rather than trying to be its own separate guide book or intro.
Make discussions in the sub our primary source, with the wiki summarizing it. This means the wiki will only be as accurate as general discussion, but that no one has to be an expert to edit the wiki. "u/somedude et al agree X is a bad idea at [link], but there is still no consensus on Y [link][link][link]"
Then any time a newbies question can be answered by the wiki, slap them with a link and downvote if it answers their question. If it isn't explained on the wiki, or the newbie raises a good question about clarifying the wiki, upvote for visibility, discuss, append.
The problem with you suggestion IMO is, if you link them the answers, you are still doing the work they should of done in the first place and thus didn't teach them a thing.
I think teaching them to search is the goal, but deleting posts won't help much. Deleting a newbies post just discourages them, posting a link shows the newbie the info existed and they could have found it, and hopefully shows a few more newbies how we do things.
Why not use the one stickied thread as a landing page for everything that won't fit in the sidebar?
It'd make it easy to point people to the right place when they misstep.
It's a tough call. On the one hand we want to confine things like clone requests and what can I make with these flavors, but we don't want to lose recipes or questions that are not asked every day.
I'd rather like a ban on image links. If it's relevant then a person can find an article or something that includes that picture. "Hey, look at this Automated Accuradrip Syringe 9000™" is way more useful if it goes to an article about said nifty syringe or a self post containing relevant information than if it points to a simple link to a jpg, plus it would pre-empt "Hey, look at this bottle in which I made things."
Honestly I don't feel like there is much to talk about once you have a grasp of the basics down (PG/VG properties, low/high note flavors, different additives) and just comes down to how good of a recipe can you make. This sub used to be pretty interesting but with the constant influx of new DIYers the quality has dropped drastically for some reason and activity seems to have plummeted.
As much as I love the whole monthly recipe thread idea, it does not create much collaboration or discussion among the community. How about if we do a monthly "Use X Flavor Recipe" thread? For example September: Use peach in a recipe. It would give a bit of direction for creative recipes and since everyone would be incorporating at least 1 similar ingredient, it would allow people to learn from each other as well as being much more collaborative.
The current recipe threads often boil down to a couple of renamed and rehashed recipes and very little is new OC.
I think over-moderation would be a bigger problem than the noise made by a few individuals. I think the job of moderators on reddit should be to do as little as possible to maintain a modicum of order (e.g. removing outright spam). I think far too many entitled individuals have this drive to silence anyone who post things that they don't like, and it's wrong.
If you don't like something, click back, or better yet don't click that submission at all. If you really can't stand something, downvote and move on. If you can't be helpful and point the OP of a repetitive question to a resource, you're as much a part of the problem as the OP who didn't search.
As specifically pertains to this sub, I don't see much "advanced" discussion going on, so of course most of the content is going to be beginners, and repetitive, and that's just how it is when a lot of people want to get started with something new. We should just accept that rather than trying to force them into some pattern that goes against the clearly natural process of asking questions. Otherwise you'll just make this place seem unapproachable if not stuck up. The complainers (on any side) will never be silent, it's not in their nature.
> As specifically pertains to this sub, I don't see much "advanced" discussion going on, so of course most of the content is going to be beginners, and repetitive, and that's just how it is when a lot of people want to get started with something new.
I agree with this 100%. However, I think the reason we don't see much advanced discussion is because most of the experienced members stopped coming back because the sub is flooded with questions that could be answered by a simple search. I can find 4-6 month old posts that are amazing quality of advanced content but don't see those types of posts except very infrequently now because the sub is flooded with: "how do i do xxxx" requests.
If this continues to occur, we will continue to lose folks that don't need basic advice and all advanced discussion will cease completely over time.
Alternatively, the opposite could happen. A bunch more people get started with DiY, discover their own tips and tricks and come back here to help others. It just seems like everything is moving the opposite direction here.
Just my two cents, not speaking officially ;-)
See, I don't think many are lost because of repetitive questions. I think as people get further into this as a hobby, and perhaps as a business, their need for this sub simply dwindles. That there are a lot of repetitive questions seems somewhat coincidental to me, or at least people noticing it so much. I'll agree that there seems to be less in-depth content being posted these days, but I think restricting the only content left is just going to make things worse rather than better.
What about a weekly noob thread where those types of questions can be posted?
That kinda worked for ECR, the amount of "hey I just got a nemesis and IGO, first mech why won't the battery fit?" type threads decreased by about 70% day to day once they started that.
Just sayin.
We should have official equipment recommendation threads, official what you need to get started threads, and an official noob question thread all linked prominently in the sticky and sidebar (maybe move the nic price chart to a link rather than like 1/3 of the sidebar, just sayin).
At least I believe that we should have these things if we want to cut down on the frequency of those types of posts.
If you guys mod too hard you're gonna drive people off before they get involved in this sub.
Just my opinion.
EDIT:
I'm slacking just as much as anybody else, I could - no I should have written a mix by weight guide by now so that there is a link that can be used to answer those kind of threads.
You three aren't the only ones that can help out with the quality of the experience here, and I'll take part of the blame for that too.
I frequently lurk here and chime in where I can, but I can do more, and I will (as soon as I get the other 50 things that are top priority handled).
I also wanted to add that you guys are doing an awesome job here.
It's on Auto-Mod "Weekly New Mixers Questions Thread"
Unfortunately because of all the questions that don't get put in there that should be, it's on it's 7th day and 5 pages back.
I should also add that in the last 7 days only 2 top level posts/questions were submitted there.
Maybe the issue is just the visibility?
As a noob who is still working on his first flavor (And a lurker), I really like the idea of having a thread that's dedicated to showing recommended equipment. When starting out, it's definitely overwhelming trying to find out what's actually needed to start, and what isn't. Also I really like the flavor thread /u/Botboy141 has created and can't wait for more flavors to be added.
Imo this isn't an active enough sub to start deleting threads. It doesn't take long to scroll to last week in here.
I am one of those that is perfectly happy to keep scrolling past newbie posts if it's the same info over and over...sometimes I'll pop in and answer, sometimes I won't.
I don't really even care if ppl post the "looking for an xyz clone"....but that's just me. We don't have 100 posts/day here, and until it gets crazy busy I don't see a need for over-moderation.
As an aside, if the mods need any help I'd be happy to mod/help.
Thank you for saying this. I was trying to come up with a way myself without coming off like a total ass. This is still too small of a sub to have too tight of restrictions on for posting.
As it stands, all that is supposed to be talked about outside of the weekly and monthly threads really is individual flavor reviews, new techniques for mixing, where to find bottles and not much else. Even where to find bottles and mixing techniques are technically supposed to be relegated to the newbie thread.
I think high level discussions about specific flavors or goals of a recipe are fine as well. But the typical, hey I just whipped this up it's my first DiY and best juice ever after 2 minutes of shaking need to be placed elsewhere.
/u/jackster1232002 for example posts high level recipes and attempts at clones as new threads and they are very GOOD content. We'd never think about removing them because of the thought put into them.
They aren't hey how I should I start trying to make this? I don't even mind that so much as just the hey check out this recipe. That is the purpose of the monthly thread.
Now if you go hey, I have these 5 flavors in this juice, they taste like this, I want them to taste more like that but can't figure it out. Here's the 4 variations I've tried and here's my tasting notes on them. Once again, that would be fine.
It's the low level, low content that just gets annoying to someone like myself.
It's not about the traffic or the "policing" of threads. It's about providing the absolute best location for DiY e-juice discussion on the web.
We don't want to police it, but we're losing a TON of high value content redditors because of the lack of policing.
Hell, I myself a few weeks ago, was ready to branch off and start an Advanced_DiY_Ejuice sub so that more experienced folks could work on higher level shit without getting spammed off the top page every 2 days by how do i get this juice to be this mg posts.
This place is quickly becoming like ECF. Its overmoderated and the users are all curmudgeonly asses that can't be bothered to help anyone. Seriously? Deleting questions and answering every question with "search for it yourself" is exactly what ECF is and why no one likes it
The constant flow of users needing help, can get annoying, but these are the important ones to answer. These people are excited to get going with their brand new bottles of flavors and nicotine. If they don't get help or pointed in the right direction, they will probably go ahead and do something dangerous. I would love to see a banner that points new comers to the sidebar.
I love the content here and believe anyone that doesn't like a post should not click on it or back out and move on. Just don't take recipes from people and sell "your" juice, hate that...
Like to add, maybe some more 'flair" could be added. "Newb? " "Flavor?" "ThankYou" "Nic?" etc etc...
I've been suggesting this to the mods for a little while now, and without any sort of response from them on it.
What I'm hearing from the mod posts in this thread are "I'm a mod and I feel committed to posting in every thread. I'm tired of answering the same questions repeatedly."
The simple fix is don't click on those posts. This isn't a job. You aren't required to consume and respond to every bit of content ppsted, regardless of value.
Only for items available via a simple search or obvious in the sidebar. I don't comment on the majority of subs in this thread if I feel they add no value. I do simply downvote.
This thread has nothing to do with me to be honest, I'm just voicing my opinion as a user of this sub, not as a mod.
It seems I'm far from feeling alone in seeing too many posts that could be answered via the sidebar as well as a search though. The votes have been cast. We'll give it a couple more weeks for everyone to get their opinion in then start acting accordingly I would guess.
This sub is super important to me and it's improvement is paramount to my success. I would like to say that I am grateful for all of the help that senior members have given me.
On the point of whether or not to allow "noob questions". I believe that there are two reasons so many people ask questions that can be easily found in search or sidebar. The first reason?
They are lazy. Or simply impulsive...like me.
The second (and more important reason).
A lot of intro to DIY materials list several different roads that may lead to Rome. With to many flavors, so many recipes and so many methods to make them, a new DIYer (like me) will become very overwhelmed with the choice of which route to take. Many of us do not have the funds for hundreds of flavors, bottles, and ultra sonic cleaners.
My point is, "noob" questions get repeatedly asked because most people do not want to choose a route and fail. They want to be told what to do, exactly. They want tried and true. I.E. Instead of, "here are some recipes that feature TFA Honey Careful it's very strong!" Let's just say, "99.9% of most DIYers hate TFA Honey due to its horrible smell and taste". By posting recipes on this sub, it infers that the recipe has been mixed, steeped, and tested by a discerning member. But when I tried Honey Cream from the TFA Mega Thread, I became afraid that most of the recipes I see on this thread are thrown up willy nilly without any attempt to valuate or confirm. I know taste is subjective, but come on people, let's get real.
Next, I'd like to touch on an issue that I have been bouncing around this sub for a little while now. A confirmed recipe thread. Here is my first iteration of the idea [Reddit] (http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/2ezf0v/recipes_confirmed_thread/)
I liked the idea of a contest thread but, it does not solve the original issue: How do we provide new DIYer's with quality recipes that they know are winners?" "How do we separate tried and true recipes from the garbage that gets thrown up every two seconds on all of the recipe websites?"
We create a Gordon Ramesy, or Julia Childs, or a jacques Pepin character on this sub, maybe BotBoy can do it. Each day or each week this celebrity mixologist/ejuice wizard will provide a thread on how to make a certain recipe(apple pie) or how to accomplish a certain thing(mixing banana without a glass syringe). That way, we create a sense of valuation and focus to the sub. Many newbies will be distracted from asking their age old questions, much like how RipTrippers attracts moths to his flame.
Links to DIY starter kits, like this one for instance
also I would like to see some youtube video's for complete beginners
I can see the need for moderation, but nothing irritates me more than someone taking the time to post a reply to a noob question only telling them to go search for it. People post those to start a conversation. If I wanted a static page to research, I wouldn't be on reddit.