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What does the impending FDA regulation mean for us DIY'ers?
submitted over 11 years ago by toolongtospell

So I really am not worried about any hardware regulation, I am perfectly content with my mech and dripper.

What I am worried about is the impact that this will have on our ability to make our own liquid. I read over the articles at Gizmodo and the NYT.com but all the jargon kinda went over my head.

Could someone break it down, What do we do now? What do we need to prepare for?

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4 points
 
by mj1176over 11 years ago

So far, it means nothing for us. The only regulations outlined in today's report are the following:

  • E-Cigs will be subject to an 18+ age restriction and enforced via ID checks at point of sale just like cigarettes

  • E-Cigs, like cigarettes, cannot be sold in vending machines

  • E-juice will be required to list all ingredients -- note that "natural flavors" and "artificial flavors" are acceptable as long as those flavors themselves are food grade / USP, so this regulation doesn't mandate giving away your flavor mixes

  • Free samples containing nicotine will be prohibited

So really, it has no effect on DIY-ers or small juice businesses yet.

4 points
 
by Ubelover 11 years ago

I guess you missed the giant part where they said every product has to be approved in a lengthy process by the FDA.

4 points
 
by BongleBearover 11 years ago

I don't think we'll have a problem. All the individual ingredients we use are already FDA approved. Wizardlabs is an FDA registered facility, so the separate products we would buy there to make our own should be fine.

I think the FDA wants to crack down on the more unscrupulous vendors that put things in their pre-made liquids that we really wouldn't want in them, such as titanium coloring.

2 points
 
by Ubelover 11 years ago

I agree about the titanium coloring and stuff, but judging from how strict the FDA is with some things and the way they worded what I've seen it's basically saying ANY product containing nicotine has to be separately approved.

I saw nothing about ingredients being pre-approved and that enabling you to get around the approval process in their wording thus far.

Just because you're using safe ingredients doesn't mean you're mixing in a safe or clean environment and I think that's something the FDA wants to regulate as well.

1 points
 
by mj1176over 11 years ago

Source?

4 points
 
by Legionof1over 11 years ago

DIY will probably be fine as long as you don't sell it or maybe even give it away. Nicotine may be a bit harder to get ahold of and it may have to be mixed seperate from PG/VG. Past that the flavorings can never be outlawed and PG and VG can't be outlawed so your basically safe, nic is the biggest problem.

3 points
 
by modulemoduleover 11 years ago

Okay, lets start reading... https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2014-09491.pdf

1 points
 
by toolongtospellover 11 years ago

So is this the actual released FDA regulation?

3 points
 
by MorningStar1999over 11 years ago

It's the proposed legislation. They publicly announce their proposal and the public has 75 days to write or email comments on the legislation. There is a section early on in the document outlining where to send your comments.

1 points
 
by modulemoduleover 11 years ago

I wonder how much time, if any, we will have to look over the ACTUAL legislation.

2 points
 
by modulemoduleover 11 years ago

It appears to be, I got it from here:

Source: https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2014/04/25/2014-09491/sale-and-distribution-of-tobacco-products-and-required-warning-statements-for-tobacco-products

1 points
 
by toolongtospellover 11 years ago

Cool, I downloaded it to my phone maybe I'll get a chance to read it during my shift.

1 points
 
by nameBrandonover 11 years ago

'proposed' regulation.

3 points
 
by toolongtospellover 11 years ago

One thing that I did understand is that the FDA is now considering ecigs as a tobacco product. Which sucks, because now insurance companies can now group me in with analog smokers and force us to pay the higher premiums that are associated with tobacco use.

9 points
 
by livinitup0over 11 years ago

I don't care what the FDA says, if I have to fill out a form that asks me if I smoke I will proudly and defiantly say no.

I'm proud of quitting smoking...fuck the FDA if they think they're going to take that away. They're just another useless brach of government anyway.

4 points
 
by CitrusNinjaover 11 years ago

Upvote for being one of the few on reddit to write 'defiantly' while not actually meaning to write 'definitely'.

1 points
 
by squiredover 11 years agoMixologist

Do note that the questionaires are not phrased that way unfortunately. They typically ask something like,

"Have you, in the last x days/years, used any tobacco product and/or device or product delivering or containing nicotine?"

They will ask that question 3 or so times, increasing the duration from ~90 days to ~3-5 years. Then they blood test you once a year which includes a test for nicotine. NRTs (patches etc) are considered the same as smoking as there is no test to differentiate them from traditional tobacco products.

This is most common for life insurance policies. If that is the case, an autopsy may be required upon death and a test for nicotine may be included.

3 points
 
by FitChemist432over 11 years ago

Yes, and nicotine patches and gums are classified as medicinal.Because of this, they are not recognized as tobacco products even though the nicotine source is the same for NRT's and eliquid,

3 points
 
by N0CTURN3over 11 years agoMixologist

> * FDA recognizes that it could be difficult for manufacturers of certain proposed deemed products (e.g., small businesses) to fulfill these requirements (labelling all ingredients). Accordingly, FDA requests comments as to whether smaller manufacturers may be unable to satisfy these requirements and how FDA might be able to address those manufacturers' concerns.

> * With application of this requirement, FDA would require registration of all tobacco product manufacturing establishments and product listings for all tobacco products

> * Prohibition of free samples

> * Authority to propose product standards

> * components and parts of the proposed deemed tobacco products would fall under the scope of this rule, but accessories would not. We are proposing to include components and parts within the scope of this proposed rule, because they are included as part of a finished tobacco product or intended for consumer use in the consumption of a tobacco product

> * Components and parts that would be covered under this proposal include those items sold separately or as part of kits sold or distributed for consumer use or further manufacturing or included as part of a finished tobacco product

> * FDA considers accessories to be those items that are not included as part of a finished tobacco product or intended or expected to be used by consumers in the consumption of a tobacco product, but may be used, for example, in the storage or personal possession of a proposed deemed product.

> * ban the sale of covered tobacco products in vending machines, unless the vending machine is located in a facility where the retailer ensures that individuals under 18 years of age are prohibited from entering at any time

> * FDA is proposing to require the following health warning on all covered tobacco products, as well as cigarette tobacco and roll-your-own tobacco: "WARNING: This product contains nicotine derived from tobacco. Nicotine is an addictive chemical."

These are just some direct quotes. A lot of the stuff in there has nothing to do with e-cigarettes, since they're piggybacking policy for little cigars in the document.

3 points
 
by VAPING_ASSHOLEover 11 years ago

Here's the thing, m8's. We probably don't have to worry about VG, PG, or the flavorings we use.. It's the nic base that we have to keep our eye on. If they 'regulate' or tax the shit out of our nic base, prices will go sky high across the board (from us doing DIY to vendors that use it in the shit they sell).

2 points
 
by Nog_Rocketover 11 years ago

Absolutely nothing. They can ban all the flavors they want, as far as they're concerned I use them to flavor my coffee, water, and chocolates.

1 points
 
by toolongtospellover 11 years ago

I know the flavors, pg, and vg are safe but what about the nicotine base. They could ban the sale of nicotine solution to private individuals....

3 points
 
by StefanDidakover 11 years ago

Here's what I can see happening, in chronological order...

  • FDA has said this proposed regulation is "foundational" and that more regulation will be tucked on top of it at a later time
  • Vendors will move to 0-nic and creative ways of selling a product you add your own nic base to
  • A black market of nic-based juice will come into existence (it always does when regulations exist)
  • The combination of both of the above will lead the FDA to do something they can do quite simply on top of the current regulations; nic sales restricted to only those who have a license (and they will control licensing)

This would, eventually lead to it getting difficult to get our nic base. And I can see it happening because the media focus, or rather the PR agencies hired by those who have an interest in demonizing sales and possession/use of nicotine that place this in the media, have little to do with the current proposed regulations. They will continue to go after the nic so it's almost a certainty that something will be restricted in the future.

2 points
 
by Nog_Rocketover 11 years ago

I agree with you, that at some point nicotine regulation will come into effect. I think the media is looking for a few more stories of people dying from nic poisoning to give it "credibility" and backing. Thankfully, before that can happen there will have to be notice given, at which point I think a lot of people (including myself) will stock the hell up. If it comes to buying .97 pure nicotine powder, you better believe I will.

1 points
 
by redbeard1083over 11 years agoMixologist

i'd really like to see a study looking at % of people quitting with and without nicotine. i'm not sure the nicotine really matters all that much in ecigs.

1 points
 
by banjaxeover 11 years ago

Can't ban pesticide sales to home gardeners.

1 points
 
by grrumble66over 11 years ago

I thought they did ban that 50 years ago... where can the public buy nic now for gardening?

1 points
 
by TheAyatollahOfTrollaover 11 years ago

To my knowledge it doesn't affect us. This is more for business selling the juice and possibly hardware, but I think the hardware part was left undecided for now. At least in as much as I've read.

1 points
 
by justaredshirtover 11 years ago

As you can see from the jumbled mess below....we just don't know yet. It's all speculation at this point.

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